16 year old girl in "virtual" rape case via a VR headset

[Rich-Allen1976]

Link

It was apparently reported in the Daily Fail so I'd personally take it with a very large pinch of salt 

Thoughts?

The reason I posted this in gaming rather than general is because VR is classed as a gaming device

 

[LilMissLarBear]

See here's the thing... I *could* give an explanation and my reactions to the article but then the discussions around this can easily spiral into non gaming related topics especially with what I'm about to say next.

So my reaction to this is that it's pushing a certain rhetoric to justify why the government in the UK should "curb" social media for people aged 16 and under. That's as political as I will go because journalism is quite often tied to political agenda. Whether gaming counts as a form of social media is up your own judgement.

The article also seems quite trivial to me considering how long VR has been around now. I even had to double check when the article was written because I was all like "this has just been reported now??" I also feels like it's a bit of a smoke screen for the general public to say that game devs care about the safety of players when it comes to misconduct in online games. I personally think it's a load of crap (from personal experience that is) because whenever you go to report someone for abuse, trolling whatever I'm convinced nothing happens... Considering how much much toxic people get let off things like this do not surprise me. If anything doesn't seem news worthy to me

[Rich-Allen1976]

See here's the thing... I *could* give an explanation and my reactions to the article but then the discussions around this can easily spiral into non gaming related topics especially with what I'm about to say next.

So my reaction to this is that it's pushing a certain rhetoric to justify why the government in the UK should "curb" social media for people aged 16 and under. That's as political as I will go because journalism is quite often tied to political agenda. Whether gaming counts as a form of social media is up your own judgement.

The article also seems quite trivial to me considering how long VR has been around now. I even had to double check when the article was written because I was all like "this has just been reported now??" I also feels like it's a bit of a smoke screen for the general public to say that game devs care about the safety of players when it comes to misconduct in online games. I personally think it's a load of crap (from personal experience that is) because whenever you go to report someone for abuse, trolling whatever I'm convinced nothing happens... Considering how much much toxic people get let off things like this do not surprise me. If anything doesn't seem news worthy to me

Absolutely, I permanently deleted my Facebook account last night for exactly that, possibly breaking the #1 rule of the Internet, "never argue with an idiot, they ALWAYS bring you down to their level", basically, I was sick of reporting idiots for attacking me when FB admin keeps saying the attacks don't break community standards... The biggest problem is that FB and Twitter, in fact most of the major social media platforms, are hosted in the US, where under some Amendment or other, they can pretty much say what they want to whom they want and sod the consequences.

[LilMissLarBear]

I mean dont get me wrong at face value the article title sounds sad like no one never let alone a teenager should have to experience that in games but with the state of gaming and how gamers can behave what do we expect? It sounds like more should be done to rid these kinds of people that just abuse games to make up messed up fantasies its disgusting

[Rich-Allen1976]

I mean dont get me wrong at face value the article title sounds sad like no one never let alone a teenager should have to experience that in games but with the state of gaming and how gamers can behave what do we expect? It sounds like more should be done to rid these kinds of people that just abuse games to make up messed up fantasies its disgusting

Yeah when people can do this in just VR it kind of puts me off the invention of Star Trek style Holodecks in a few years.

I'd imagine they'd be able to do stuff with that kind of tech that's even worse!

[LikkleMel]

From how it is saying it is alluding to the game VRChat as that is the only (I know there are possibly more), but this seems to be the only game that would be accessible to someone under 16 as it is free and the most well-known VR Chatroom.

From what I know of VRChat (I've only used it once and got bored...if anything too many kids on it ) the age restrictions are similar to facebook or discord. You have to be over 13 to use it, however, you need parents' permission.

1) How are companies meant to figure out who has permission and who doesn't? The quick answer is they don't and never will. Similar to us on the forums we say if you're underage you can join, but we hope you are smart enough to know your own safety online and your parents are aware.

I personally think anyone under the age of 16 shouldn't be allowed online unless you are responsible and know your safety. I know quite a few who just don't know how to keep themself safe anyone. I saw a minor give away their location, real name and phone number in a massive cosplay group on facebook cause they were looking for "friends" and then wonder why they get weirdos harassing them.

Another thing I ask is and I know it may be "victim blaming", but not really where were the parents? Unless she had headphones in the VR Headset does have speakers. Why was she talking to grown men in the first place (again, not saying she shouldn't because lets be honest we have all done it on the internet), surely a parent should've been there to be like "oi why you talking to be child?" or at least told her child "Don't talk to stranger" - isn't that the first thing we are all taught?

Sorry for the rant But definitely an interesting topic. Shame she had to go through that, but maybe she needs a break from Virtual Reality and go back to the real world with real friends for a bit.

EDIT: Apologizes I read further down to find out the game is Meta Horizon Worlds. Again, the age is 13 and above as you NEED a facebook account. Also though.....that game is dead. I've been on it, so unless they updated that in the past year there is nothing to do on there apart from watch a concert. Still a shame you have dicks being dicks and inappropriate

[Ferefire]

I personally think anyone under the age of 16 should be allowed online unless you are responsible and know your safety. I know quite a few who just don't know how to keep themself safe anyone. I saw a minor give away their location, real name and phone number in a massive cosplay group on facebook cause they were looking for "friends" and then wonder why they get weirdos harassing them.

I assume you mean anyone under 16 shouldn't be allowed online, yes?

Here's a thought - maybe schools from the age of 11 (ie: secondary school) should properly teach online safety as part of a subject? (Similar to how sex ed is a thing). I don't know if this is not already done, but it sounds like something that should be. Raising awareness would make a huge difference.

Additionally, while I feel the government's current argument of restricting under 16s may be going too far, maybe there does need to be a legal requirement for anyone who buys a digital device to register online who will be using it when first activated. The idea would be that if they are under 16 then various restrictions and monitoring software would be put on automatically. See buying a digital device as akin to smoking or drinking - you need to ensure it's sold to an age that will use it responsibily. You could accompany this by getting those selling such devices to ask for ID to help enforce this. It would not be a perfect solution, and likely you'd have some parents buying it anyway (and lying it's for them), but at the very least if they put a device under their own name and then provide it to their child without monitoring on it and something happens then they would be criminally liable under the law. This would be a huge improvement on the current state of affairs where parents neglect their kids, allow them to basically do whatever they want on the internet without supervising and without any software, and then blame everyone but themselves when something bad happens.

Of course, A.I is likely to render all of these arguments obselete in the next couple of years. You can easily have a lot of monitoring of chatrooms, forums and VR etc monitored by A.I to look for these things.

[LikkleMel]

I assume you mean anyone under 16 shouldn't be allowed online, yes?

Here's a thought - maybe schools from the age of 11 (ie: secondary school) should properly teach online safety as part of a subject? (Similar to how sex ed is a thing). I don't know if this is not already done, but it sounds like something that should be. Raising awareness would make a huge difference.

Yes, I'll edit that oops

and yes they did when I was in school cause I always remember a BBC Short Film about internet safety with David Tennant as the narrator. I don't think they do much now...

[Ferefire]

I assume you mean anyone under 16 shouldn't be allowed online, yes?

Here's a thought - maybe schools from the age of 11 (ie: secondary school) should properly teach online safety as part of a subject? (Similar to how sex ed is a thing). I don't know if this is not already done, but it sounds like something that should be. Raising awareness would make a huge difference.

Yes, I'll edit that oops

and yes they did when I was in school cause I always remember a BBC Short Film about internet safety with David Tennant as the narrator. I don't think they do much now...

I don't believe it's mandatory. Make it mandatory so all schools have to do it. That accompanied with mandatory monitoring software, as I mention above, and ID checks, would kill a lot of this very swiftly.

[Rich-Allen1976]

From how it is saying it is alluding to the game VRChat as that is the only (I know there are possibly more), but this seems to be the only game that would be accessible to someone under 16 as it is free and the most well-known VR Chatroom.

From what I know of VRChat (I've only used it once and got bored...if anything too many kids on it ) the age restrictions are similar to facebook or discord. You have to be over 13 to use it, however, you need parents' permission.

1) How are companies meant to figure out who has permission and who doesn't? The quick answer is they don't and never will. Similar to us on the forums we say if you're underage you can join, but we hope you are smart enough to know your own safety online and your parents are aware.

I personally think anyone under the age of 16 shouldn't be allowed online unless you are responsible and know your safety. I know quite a few who just don't know how to keep themself safe anyone. I saw a minor give away their location, real name and phone number in a massive cosplay group on facebook cause they were looking for "friends" and then wonder why they get weirdos harassing them.

Another thing I ask is and I know it may be "victim blaming", but not really where were the parents? Unless she had headphones in the VR Headset does have speakers. Why was she talking to grown men in the first place (again, not saying she shouldn't because lets be honest we have all done it on the internet), surely a parent should've been there to be like "oi why you talking to be child?" or at least told her child "Don't talk to stranger" - isn't that the first thing we are all taught?

Sorry for the rant But definitely an interesting topic. Shame she had to go through that, but maybe she needs a break from Virtual Reality and go back to the real world with real friends for a bit.

EDIT: Apologizes I read further down to find out the game is Meta Horizon Worlds. Again, the age is 13 and above as you NEED a facebook account. Also though.....that game is dead. I've been on it, so unless they updated that in the past year there is nothing to do on there apart from watch a concert. Still a shame you have dicks being dicks and inappropriate

Nobody NEEDS a Facebook account, in fact I've just permanently deleted mine due to being fed up of being attacked all the time by idiots.

Also, about 15 years ago I used to volunteer for the local Police Force, based down in Rotherham, at something called "Crucial Crew" which taught year 10 school students (aged 10 and 11) about this very thing, social media safety.

I only left because social services pulled the funding for the transport

[TrashM]

You can't literally attack an avatar, it just sounds like an appeal for government overreach.

[LilMissLarBear]

You can't literally attack an avatar, it just sounds like an appeal for government overreach.

True and I do agree there has to be some narrative it's trying to push here but still it's bad considering she is a minor and I'm assuming these guys are not that's probably where it crosses the line. This is probably where the "kids under 16 shouldnt do social media" argument probably comes in because if we get rid of the young 'uns online then there won't be such issues right? (the government may say) even though the problem is still kind of there just letting people off with behavior that should be and probably is against terms of service no matter where you go online

[Rich-Allen1976]

You can't literally attack an avatar, it just sounds like an appeal for government overreach.

True and I do agree there has to be some narrative it's trying to push here but still it's bad considering she is a minor and I'm assuming these guys are not that's probably where it crosses the line. This is probably where the "kids under 16 shouldnt do social media" argument probably comes in because if we get rid of the young 'uns online then there won't be such issues right? (the government may say) even though the problem is still kind of there just letting people off with behavior that should be and probably is against terms of service no matter where you go online

The law already states nobody who isn't at least 13 can legally have a Facebook account, even with Parental supervision but they do anyway.

Between October 2008 and August 2015 I worked for SYP at "Crucial Crew" down in Rotherham, teaching 10 and 11 year olds about online safety among other stuff.

[Rich-Allen1976]

I assume you mean anyone under 16 shouldn't be allowed online, yes?

Here's a thought - maybe schools from the age of 11 (ie: secondary school) should properly teach online safety as part of a subject? (Similar to how sex ed is a thing). I don't know if this is not already done, but it sounds like something that should be. Raising awareness would make a huge difference.

Yes, I'll edit that oops

and yes they did when I was in school cause I always remember a BBC Short Film about internet safety with David Tennant as the narrator. I don't think they do much now...

I don't believe it's mandatory. Make it mandatory so all schools have to do it. That accompanied with mandatory monitoring software, as I mention above, and ID checks, would kill a lot of this very swiftly.

I agree, but it'll probably never happen cos it'd be a pain in the bum to Police.

Parents can't watch what little Timmy's doing online 24/7.

[Ferefire]

Yes, I'll edit that oops

and yes they did when I was in school cause I always remember a BBC Short Film about internet safety with David Tennant as the narrator. I don't think they do much now...

I don't believe it's mandatory. Make it mandatory so all schools have to do it. That accompanied with mandatory monitoring software, as I mention above, and ID checks, would kill a lot of this very swiftly.

I agree, but it'll probably never happen cos it'd be a pain in the bum to Police.

Parents can't watch what little Timmy's doing online 24/7.

It's moreso from a psychological perspective. People legally have to wear seatbelts - police rarely enforce if you do not, but 95% of people do. Ditto for mask wearing during covid. Even the fear of breaking the law is a powerful deterant.