Animeleague

There are some people who are interested in discussing this, so I've created this thread.

Let me quickly introduce three points of view (let me know, if there are more).

One point of view is that "all feminism is bad", "feminism is cancer" etc. This point of view is promoted by e.g. alt-right, incels, men's rights activists etc.

The second point of view is the Twitter type feminism, the woke version: "all men are evil", "all men should shut up and they should be censored", "no one should listen to what men have to say", "all men are inherently unable to be good people", "all men are violent beasts".

But there is also a third point of view: "there are different types of feminisms", "some kinds of feminism are good and some are bad". I support the third point of view.

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This thread is also related to the following website: "https://www.animefeminist.com/" which purports to be THE feminist analysis of anime. No, it isn't. It's only A feminist analysis, and I'm not a fan of the kind of feminism they propose.

That's why I will do a funny thing. I will take:
a) some articles from "animefeminist"
and
b) some sexist anime

and I will try to show how both of them are bad or wrong or mistaken.

I will analyze both from a feminist point of view, but not the kind of feminism which is supported by "animefeminist".

Because you know, feminism is not a single idea and a single point of view.

Feel free to join the discussion.

Round 1!

https://www.animefeminist.com/interspec ... episode-1/

VS

Interspecies Reviewers

Yup, let's start with Interspecies Reviewers.

1. The anime.

So what is wrong with this anime?

The first thing is that it shows prostitution positively. The characters in this anime enjoy being prostitutes.

This hugely distorts the reality.

The view that: "prostitutes want and enjoy being prostitutes" is mostly promoted by the sex business for obvious reasons. But it's not true.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9698636

One hundred and thirty people working as prostitutes in San Francisco were interviewed regarding the extent of violence in their lives and symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
…
Of the 130 people interviewed, 68% met DSM III-R criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. Eighty-eight percent of these respondents stated that they wanted to leave prostitution, and described what they needed in order to escape.

I think it's safe to say that MOST prostitutes do not enter prostitution because they want to have sex with multiple men, but because they desperately need money. The prostitution business is also responsible for human trafficking of women etc.

The problem with this anime is that it leaves the impression on the viewer that prostitution is fun and roses. It isn't. So the prostitution as depicted in this anime is totally unrealistic.

Also the idea of reviews is commodifying women's body. The male characters treat those women as products and they write reviews about them. It's very in-line with capitalist thinking that everything (including animals, humans etc.) are products to buy or rent.

The things I described above are a bad influence for people who have difficulties in distinguishing between facts and fiction. But it is important to understand that (AFAIK) no real prostitutes were used in preparing this anime. So there are no direct victims. The only victims can be indirect ones. They are victims of men who after watching this anime, believe in how it presents prostitution. If a man only treats this as fiction and his thinking is not affected by it, then it's harmless and it's just a sexual fantasy, but unfortunately many people are strongly affected by the things they watch. But it's not like all men will be affected. Men are neither "violent beasts" nor "automatic rapists who only wait for the right trigger". They are humans.

There are more problematic elements of this anime, but let's do it step by step, if necessary.

2. The "animefeminist" review.

This review actually wasn't as bad as their usual reviews. But still…

In its own braindead way, this show perfectly illustrates the way that the sex industry can be extremely fraught for anyone who isn’t cis (remember, Crim is passing as a cis man with his friends because he’s literally afraid of being raped if they found out he possesses a vagina), straight, male, and in the racial majority.

Crim isn't trans passing as cis. This is total bullshit. Because angels are a different species, it appears to me that Crims is probably a hermaphrodite.

From Wikipedia:

In biology, a hermaphrodite (/hɜːrˈmæfrədaɪt/) is an organism that has complete or partial reproductive organs and produces gametes normally associated with both male and female sexes.

Humans can't be hermaphrodites. They can be intersex, but not hermaphrodite. But as angels are a different species, it seems possible to me. So the whole narrative above doesn't apply to Crim. And Crim is not "passing" as cis. Crim simply didn't tell them about the vagina. That's all. And this doesn't illustrate anything about the sex industry, has nothing to do with being straight or male. Because hermaphrodites cannot be straight or gay. Crim is also neither male nor female. Because Crim is hermaphrodite, lol, it's not that hard.

And also the racial card. Yes, this story is about different races/species. But I don't think this show has shown any race discrimination. Actually it's appears to be the opposite. Unless I missed something, or it's different in later episodes, it seems that all of those races live together in peace and harmony.

unoduetre wrote:The first thing is that it shows prostitution positively. The characters in this anime enjoy being prostitutes.

This hugely distorts the reality.

This is the first point that I disagree with.
It is explained in the opening sequence that these girls have succubus DNA. I you are going by mythology then they are a demon that seduce and pray on non succubs performing sexual acts and such.

unoduetre wrote: So the prostitution as depicted in this anime is totally unrealistic.

Agreed.
This is complete fantasy.

unoduetre wrote: Also the idea of reviews is commodifying women's body. The male characters treat those women as products and they write reviews about them. It's very in-line with capitalist thinking that everything (including animals, humans etc.) are products to buy or rent.

They review these brothels, like a food review, however they do review for different perspectives (race, gender, and perference) as their is more than one reviewer to create a more balanced and fair review.

unoduetre wrote: The things I described above are a bad influence for people who have difficulties in distinguishing between facts and fiction.

This is probably the most important point of your post.
This is clearly a work of fiction and (from my point) an interesting perspective on a completely multi-species society (succubus included).

unoduetre wrote: Crim isn't trans passing as cis. This is total bullshit. Because angels are a different species, it appears to me that Crims is probably a hermaphrodite.

Yes its in the manga and I assume later in the series they will explain this.

unoduetre wrote: Humans can't be hermaphrodites. They can be intersex, but not hermaphrodite. But as angels are a different species, it seems possible to me. So the whole narrative above doesn't apply to Crim. And Crim is not "passing" as cis. Crim simply didn't tell them about the vagina. That's all. And this doesn't illustrate anything about the sex industry, has nothing to do with being straight or male. Because hermaphrodites cannot be straight or gay. Crim is also neither male nor female. Because Crim is hermaphrodite, lol, it's not that hard.

I laughed at this, totally agree.

unoduetre wrote: And also the racial card. Yes, this story is about different races/species. But I don't think this show has shown any race discrimination. Actually it's appears to be the opposite. Unless I missed something, or it's different in later episodes, it seems that all of those races live together in peace and harmony.

There is a section where they are talking about the least desirable race to marry.
However I do belive that the interviewers are completely open and willing to try anything, I mean thats the whole point of the show.

HentaiSenpai wrote:This is the first point that I disagree with.
It is explained in the opening sequence that these girls have succubus DNA. I you are going by mythology then they are a demon that seduce and pray on non succubs performing sexual acts and such.

It's related to what I said later on. If one treats it as pure fantasy, one notices those details. I didn't even remember it, but yeah, they have succubus blood etc. But the argument was that there are people who might be badly affected by this show. I don't think the succubus blood argument will have any influence on them being badly affected. Rather, I think they will start to see all prostitutes in a way that's depicted in this show, regardless of whether they have "succubus blood". In the real world "succubus blood" would be just a very rare example of a prostitute who is a prostitute because she wants to be one. There is probably at least one in the world, right? But it doesn't change the argument.

HentaiSenpai wrote:They review these brothels, like a food review, however they do review for different perspectives (race, gender, and perference) as their is more than one reviewer to create a more balanced and fair review.

I don't think "human" bodies should be a matter of review. They're not products. This is of course an opinion.

It would be different if they showed human prostitutes as not liking it and prostitutes with succubus blood as liking it. The argument would be different then.

Also, there is another matter.

There was a scene where the personal boundary of the waitress bird-women were broken without her consent.

Touching people without them consenting to it is by definition sexual harassment.

Sexually harassing waitresses is a common pattern, including in Japan. This show depicts it as something being normal and without consequences.

Would you like a random guy in a bar to touch your back (or your ass) in an erotic way?

unoduetre wrote:It would be different if they showed human prostitutes as not liking it and prostitutes with succubus blood as liking it. The argument would be different then.

Agreed. However do believe having succubus blood is a requirement to be part of one of the brothels.
I also agree with the point you have made regarding these the rare cases in real world prostitution of enjoyment and I acknowledge that prostitution in real would has a lot (like 90%+ of all prostitution) is completely wrong as a money driven industry with a lot of criminals involved.

unoduetre wrote: I don't think "human" bodies should be a matter of review. They're not products. This is of course an opinion.

My opinion of this is that anything that is being sold as a product can be reviews and given an opinion on. This would be free and open speach based on opinion and experience ofcourse. Being an interviewer theses reviews should remain unbiased and I fully support this.

[mention=109946]HentaiSenpai[/mention]

Would you mind, if I reviewed your body type? (Just based on how you look of course and not anything involving any sexual activities, ha ha.)

unoduetre wrote:Touching people without them consenting to it is by definition sexual harassment.

This is a very difficult one...
The manner in the way the anime shows it clear and playful, to be expected from that character.
I agree there is a line that is very easily crossed when it comes to consent, the character never assaulted the server by grabbing her ass or breasts, only struck the back of her neck.

In my opinion, this may be harassment and the previous interactions with the character it is clear that they know each other well. This would be completely different if this was their first time meeting.

unoduetre wrote:[mention=109946]HentaiSenpai[/mention]

Would you mind, if I reviewed your body type?

Did I say I was for sale?
If I was offering a product or service regarding my body, then sure.

HentaiSenpai wrote:This is a very difficult one...
The manner in the way the anime shows it clear and playful, to be expected from that character.
I agree there is a line that is very easily crossed when it comes to consent, the character never assaulted the server by grabbing her ass or breasts, only struck the back of her neck.

In my opinion, this may be harassment and the previous interactions with the character it is clear that they know each other well. This would be completely different if this was their first time meeting.

She appeared not consenting to me. Let's check a screenshot.

[attachment=1]no_consent.jpg[/attachment]

HentaiSenpai wrote:Did I say I was for sale?
If I was offering a product or service regarding my body, then sure.

What if you were forced by some circumstances to sell your body? E.g. a violent, stronger than you person threatening you? (Many prostitutes are in this situation.)

The problem is that often it's not the prostitutes that offer their bodies for sale but e.g. their pimps.

Well, as said it's a matter of opinion, so I'll just leave you with your opinion. There is no point in arguing.

unoduetre wrote:She appeared not consenting to me. Let's check a screenshot.

The only person who could say ye or nah would be the bird girl, violence may be the response but in no way was he banned or not served. Theres nothing to say that this is not a normal way of interaction between these two characters.