Babylon

[unoduetre]

[mention=6444]Momogari[/mention]

So what do you really think about this anime? Was it good? Was it worth watching? Was it good that I recommended it to you? Do you regret watching it?

[unoduetre]

  Spoiler:  

I am a weird person.

For example I sometimes like when evil wins. Especially when some characters try and try and try and try and it's all for nothing. And then they die. Just like in the real world. I actually enjoyed Magase winning.

I am also weird, because I'm not a fan of the bible.

So the biblical references in this anime did nothing to me. (But I know the bible enough to understand them. It's just that I don't care.)

I am also weird for a different reason.

I don't think that good=continuation and evil=end is the right "definition". So it sounded a bit silly.

Weird.

But it was a good anime. It could be better, but it was still very good. Probably my top 30 or something.

[unoduetre]

  Spoiler:  

Oh, I know why I didn't empathize too much with the MC and other characters. They were lawful. (the D&D meaning) Or something like that. They looked for a universal definition of good and evil, the purpose and meaning of life, a general idea they can submit to, a general idea they can be servants of. And this anime referenced the bible as if it were a good source to base thinking on.

These two things got me disconnected emotionally from the characters. I just don't think there can be a universally accepted definition of good and evil, and especially not one based on the bible. I just know where it all goes.

I like many of Max Stirner's ideas. But this made many assumptions which were opposite to them. "Let's go to a journey to find the true meaning of life". FUCK YOU.

But besides that, it was still a very good anime!

And Magase winning was actually the rejection of these ideas. So that's why I enjoyed it. It was a rejection of this "lawful" style of thinking.

You can imagine as many "higher ideas", "gods", "humanistic goals" as you want. You still gonna die the same death as anyone else.

[unoduetre]

  Spoiler:  

I also really liked how they explained their urge to kill themselves as similar to sexual tension.

You can have as many "higher ideas" about love etc. But you still just want to fuck. And it was similar in this anime with suicide. The president "finally found what good and evil really means!!!!". But in the end, he just "wanted to fuck". Because he's just "an animal".

[unoduetre]

  Spoiler:  

So yeah, actually, when I think about it, the final scene with Magase winning was a total rejection of things that happened before it.

Yeah, I think I actually like this anime. Because of that last scene. Yup! Definitely in my top 30-ish.

[unoduetre]

Ha ha!

I didn't notice that before someone pointed it.

Source: https://twitter.com/theanireview/status ... 87586?s=19

[attachment=1]poster.jpg[/attachment]

[Momogari]

[mention=6444]Momogari[/mention]

So what do you really think about this anime? Was it good? Was it worth watching? Was it good that I recommended it to you? Do you regret watching it?

Yes, Yes, Yes, No, it was a great anime. I meant it the first time.
Things can be good and stressful at the same time.
Apart from that, it was a very interesting anime. Very thoughtful. It also had a great plot and some great characters. I like Zen as a character; I don't know about as a person. I like Alex Wood as a character too.

Ai Magase was also a character. She stressed me the fuck out so I don't like her.

  Spoiler:  

I am a weird person.

For example I sometimes like when evil wins. Especially when some characters try and try and try and try and it's all for nothing. And then they die. Just like in the real world. I actually enjoyed Magase winning.

  Spoiler:  

I sometimes like it when evil wins, but not in this case. Maybe this was too real for me. Maybe it was mostly the empathy getting in the way of enjoyment. That ending was sickening. I hated it.

  Spoiler:  

I am also weird, because I'm not a fan of the bible.

So the biblical references in this anime did nothing to me. (But I know the bible enough to understand them. It's just that I don't care.)

  Spoiler:  

I don't think that's weird.
I sometimes like the bible used as a allusion or plot point. The idea of Magase being the whore of babylon was intriguing to me just because I've never really heard anything about the whore of babylon or seen it used much in stories.

  Spoiler:  

I don't think that good=continuation and evil=end is the right "definition". So it sounded a bit silly.

  Spoiler:  

I thought it was a good conclusion, actually. I liked it and accepted it and felt it was also the sort of answer Alex would come up with.

[Momogari]

  Spoiler:  

Oh, I know why I didn't empathize too much with the MC and other characters. They were lawful. (the D&D meaning) Or something like that. They looked for a universal definition of good and evil, the purpose and meaning of life, a general idea they can submit to, a general idea they can be servants of. And this anime referenced the bible as if it were a good source to base thinking on.

These two things got me disconnected emotionally from the characters. I just don't think there can be a universally accepted definition of good and evil, and especially not one based on the bible. I just know where it all goes.

I like many of Max Stirner's ideas. But this made many assumptions which were opposite to them. "Let's go to a journey to find the true meaning of life". FUCK YOU.

But besides that, it was still a very good anime!

And Magase winning was actually the rejection of these ideas. So that's why I enjoyed it. It was a rejection of this "lawful" style of thinking.

You can imagine as many "higher ideas", "gods", "humanistic goals" as you want. You still gonna die the same death as anyone else.

  Spoiler:  

I don't think the answer was really based on the bible at all. It got used, but really only peripherally and more as a background for the character than it was an actual motivation. And given that character, I think it was correct to do so and well placed.

  Spoiler:  

I also really liked how they explained their urge to kill themselves as similar to sexual tension.

You can have as many "higher ideas" about love etc. But you still just want to fuck. And it was similar in this anime with suicide. The president "finally found what good and evil really means!!!!". But in the end, he just "wanted to fuck". Because he's just "an animal".

nah bruh that's just weird

I think it was an impactful decision to make it that way. Come to think of it that's another way it ties to the whore of babylon.

  Spoiler:  

So yeah, actually, when I think about it, the final scene with Magase winning was a total rejection of things that happened before it.

  Spoiler:  

Yeah, I can see that. I don't think it's a rejection of the lawful decision-making process or the conclusion though. To me it was more like, we can have all the ideals we want to and either reality doesn't give a shit or that evil will still exist and can't really be eliminated by any such ideals or decisions.


I do not think that Magase's placement and use in this anime was there to get viewers to actually think about what she was saying or to provide some elaborate counterpoint against absolute morality. I think her place in this anime, through the emotional reaction to her words and actions, was to offer a view of what evil is. On the surface she's supposed to be the postmodern skepticist candy about morality, right? But that would be a lot more effective if she wasn't directly responsible for all the deaths that were clearly intended to be emotionally impacting. Honestly if there's any intended dogma in this show I think it tends towards an absolute morality rather than away from it.

I don't think there is though. I think it's just a good story by people who think about shit like this.

[unoduetre]

  Spoiler:  

I sometimes like the bible used as a allusion or plot point. The idea of Magase being the whore of babylon was intriguing to me just because I've never really heard anything about the whore of babylon or seen it used much in stories.

  Spoiler:  

Yeah, the bible is fine like any other fictional book. I think that if I lived in a different world and bible were just yet another book and this anime made a reference to it, I would be very happy and interested etc. Unfortunately, I feel like the bible is just referred to far too often, especially in the west. Everything goes around the bible. I see a random movie and I see many biblical references. I'm happy the milk in my fridge doesn't have any biblical quotes on the bottle, if you know what I mean. I don't want my anime to have it. So it's not a problem with this anime that it refers to it. It's the problem with the western world I live in. Let's say it's something I'm personally annoyed about. It has nothing to do with this anime to be honest.

Yeah, I agree, Whore of Babylon is an interesting trope in itself.

[unoduetre]

  Spoiler:  

I don't think the answer was really based on the bible at all. It got used, but really only peripherally and more as a background for the character than it was an actual motivation. And given that character, I think it was correct to do so and well placed.

  Spoiler:  

Nevertheless, it used this awful biblical idea, that learning things will lead you to death. The president learned what good and evil means and so he had to die. This idea is taken directly from the bible. It's awful.

  Spoiler:  

Yeah, I can see that. I don't think it's a rejection of the lawful decision-making process or the conclusion though. To me it was more like, we can have all the ideals we want to and either reality doesn't give a shit or that evil will still exist and can't really be eliminated by any such ideals or decisions.

I do not think that Magase's placement and use in this anime was there to get viewers to actually think about what she was saying or to provide some elaborate counterpoint against absolute morality. I think her place in this anime, through the emotional reaction to her words and actions, was to offer a view of what evil is. On the surface she's supposed to be the postmodern skepticist candy about morality, right? But that would be a lot more effective if she wasn't directly responsible for all the deaths that were clearly intended to be emotionally impacting. Honestly if there's any intended dogma in this show I think it tends towards an absolute morality rather than away from it.

I don't think there is though. I think it's just a good story by people who think about shit like this.

  Spoiler:  

I don't think she had much to do with postmodernism. More with existentialism and nihilism. But whatever… I don't want to discuss this… What I want to say is the following…

She asked these questions e.g. what is justice, what is good, what is evil. And her answer when she was murdering Hiasa was that she understood all of that in the same way as Zen on the logical/conceptual level, but there was one difference between them. The difference was about her will/attitude towards what they agreed to be evil. She just liked it. It was very simple. Zen hated evil, so he didn't do it. Ai liked evil, so she did it. It's like the taste of ice cream. Zen liked a different taste from Ai. And I wholly agree with this conclusion. There is no basis of good or evil, besides what one arbitrary chooses to do, or even sometimes what one just happens to like. That's it.

In the end, because her power prevailed over the power of the world leaders and Zen, her version was the chosen one. She was the winner and Zen was the loser.

And I really like this conclusion. "Strawberry ice-cream" turned out to be the winner and "peach ice-cream" turned out to be the loser. Because these things are indeed arbitrary.

There are no universal moral "facts" or moral "truths". It's just that I like this and you like that.

There is nothing like a "moral world" which we can observe, make some experiments and compare to our moral judgements and say "yeah, this moral statement is true and that moral statement is false".

There is only the question who has more power to enforce their morals.

That's why I think it was great.

Not because I like the fact the only power can decide, but because this anime reflects how things really are.

Fortunately, most people do not like evil, they're not like Magase. If they were, the world would be a different place.

[unoduetre]

If I didn't answer to any of the points you raised, it means that either I agree or I have nothing to add.

[unoduetre]

Yes, Yes, Yes, No, it was a great anime. I meant it the first time.
Things can be good and stressful at the same time.
Apart from that, it was a very interesting anime. Very thoughtful. It also had a great plot and some great characters. I like Zen as a character; I don't know about as a person. I like Alex Wood as a character too.

Ai Magase was also a character. She stressed me the fuck out so I don't like her.

OK! I'm happy my recommendation was successful.

[unoduetre]

Also something unrelated.

  Spoiler:  

I think postmodernism in philosophy is crap. But postmodernism in art, literature etc. is great. I think those are actually two different movements only sharing the same name.

And I like nihilism and existentialism in philosophy. They're not the same thing as postmodernism.

Postmodernism in philosophy is often anti-scientific. But nihilism and existentialism do not talk about knowledge as much, but they focus on ethics, morality etc.

And the difference is huge. Most facts are independent of my choices. I can't just decide that tomorrow London will disappear. But I can decide whether or not e.g. killing people or helping people is something I want to do.

That's why postmodernism in philosophy is crap. It was created as a way to analyze literature and art. In literature and art everything is arbitrary. The author can do whatever they want. And they are often influenced by their own ethical or political assumptions.

But science is not literature.

Nihilism and existentialism do not have this problem, because they mostly do not talk about the facts in the world, but about humans and their thoughts.

Postmodernism tries to talk about everything and be an all-encompassing philosophy and that's why it often falls outside of its domain of competence. It's like listening to art and literature experts talking about physics. No, thanks.

[unoduetre]

  Spoiler:  

One more thing. The scene when Zen pointed his gun towards Ai.

Below is some guessing.

What stopped him from pulling the trigger? I think it was his beliefs. He wanted to be good and just. His ideology said that good = continuing. So he couldn't end Ai's life. (Justice was also involved, there was no trial etc.) I think when Ai told him that he's bad, because he killed Alex, he realized that. So he didn't want to "make the same mistake" again.

But if he hadn't had this ideology of good and bad, he would have pulled the trigger instantly. To protect himself, his family and the humanity. But instead of pulling the trigger he probably started to think about what is good, what is bad etc. The kind of "lawful" thinking I referred to earlier. So by not pulling the trigger he (in practice) COMMITTED SUICIDE. This or that way, he was bad, ha ha. Because he didn't continue. He could have either continued his own life or Ai's.

So his idea of good and bad and justice (and justice according to him = continuing to think about what is good and bad) lead him to his own destruction.

Of course there is a lot of guessing involved in what I said above, so don't treat it too seriously.

[unoduetre]

  Spoiler:  

Only after I wrote it, I fully realised it. Sometimes it's good to put things into words and let other people question and discuss it. Thanks [mention=6444]Momogari[/mention].

This anime was pretty complicated. It gave me a lot to think about. That's why I like philosophical anime.