Magick

[Ferefire]

Spam removed. Back on topic now.

[Bear]

I'm tired of hearing this argument.

People who have high-ranking positions in governments in some of the most powerful nations believe that some of the most well-established scientific facts are wrong. Most mainstream journalism on scientific findings is hilariously inaccurate or misinformed. The History Channel is running shows about how Atlantis was real and made by aliens.

I find it exceedingly hard to believe - to put it very gently - that a dearth of people willing to investigate superstitious bullshit is somehow what's "holding the field back."

You're also looking at the stigma backwards. Researching this is stigmatized as foolish because research has shown that it is. It's not like scientists have some list of things that are dogmatically to be considered taboo and never indulged (sounds more like certain other organizations...).

Hell, it's more the exact opposite, generally: Many scientists are hoping to be the ones with the next breakthrough finding that earns them attention and funding - if there were any promising evidence that the "spiritual body" weren't a bunch of bullshit, then starting scientists all over the place would be leaping at the chance to make that breakthrough.

In other words, sometimes stigma is justified - and in this case, empirically justified. If you can't find scientists who know more about the relevant subjects than you, who are willing to investigate the subject, that should tell you something.

I think you might be getting a little bit confused, earlier you said about science and its definition. Science can't explain magic because it's magic, if it could then it wouldn't be magic. As for scientists, It's not that long ago since Albert Einstein was around, the stuff that we know because of him might seem very understandable now, but at the time it was a radical point of view, very complicated and hardly anyone understood it. you think his early work wasn't heavily criticised at some point? (dont forget it's also only a theory which in the case of the LHC was almost proved wrong )

Magic is.......Magic, when science figures out the mechanics behind it (and when we understand the mechanics behind it), it will become something else, heck the human race is always evolving (or is it? Another scientific theory ) who is to say that as a species we haven't reached our full potential yet?

TV shows are heavily influenced by ratings and popular culture. I'm betting that for almost every conspiracy theory there is a show using "scientific facts" proving just how fake/real it is.

One last thing:
-People who have high-ranking positions in governments in some of the most powerful nations believe that some of the most well-established scientific facts are wrong.
I'm not calling you out on this but I would really like a name and shame thing here....I could even go first........Kim Jong-il

[Ivan]

I think it's pretty funny that you assumed Ivan believes in the power of prayer when he's said nothing to that effect.

me too, but i guess i haven't posted in any asinine religion threads here lately

also, for all intents and purposes, i'm going to consider prayer a type of Magick, since it's been specified that you can use any ritual you like, call upon any deity you like, and even 'cast' the 'spell' by use of the mind alone. i don't see why anyone would make a distinction between that and beaming wishes to the mega-sky-daddy.

and that's sort of what i was getting at the whole time; whenever scientists do investigate the effectiveness of prayer (or other paranormal thought-based wish activity), they're found to be utterly ineffective means of getting anything done. you're just as likely to get what you want by chance. meanwhile, the people who profess to believe in the power of the stuff refuse to collect any data of their own - even something as simple as personal spell effectiveness over time.

it's not that you're being persecuted or told to shut up because people don't want to believe in your crazy new worldview; it's because this method sounds exactly like a giant scam, a way to sucker people into spending money or attending meetings or believing in certain political ideologies to push some agenda. it's been done before, and the risk of a scam isn't offset by any actual benefits. even if it isn't a scam, you're likely to be setting yourself up for one if you're in the habit of believing this kind of reasoning. not to mention the waste of time, effort, and emotion for no gain.

[mani]

I think you might be getting a little bit confused, earlier you said about science and its definition. Science can't explain magic because it's magic, if it could then it wouldn't be magic.

Since science is only structured empirical reasoning, there is by definition nothing in the natural world that science cannot explain. If your definition of "magic" is "something that can't be explained by science," you are saying that magic isn't real. (Which is kinda the point, which is why I was asking for your definition of science.)

[Bear]

Since science is only structured empirical reasoning, there is by definition nothing in the natural world that science cannot explain. If your definition of "magic" is "something that can't be explained by science," you are saying that magic isn't real. (Which is kinda the point, which is why I was asking for your definition of science.)

Science is behind everything is what I am saying, even if we don't understand it at the time. Quick example, before absolute zero was discovered to be the lowest temperature achievable, what was the coldest temperature possible? Thats right absolute zero! Just because science can't explain something at the time doesn't mean it doesn't exist yet. Heck a lunar eclipse was considered magic before and it is real. I'm not saying science doesn't know everything, but we certainly don't and thats the point I'm trying to make. Magic is the effect without the cause, an incomplete equation, but it is there, it is real because people say they have seen its effects.

Ok hypothetically lets say in the distant future the human race evolves to the point of developing telekinesis. Right now that would be moving things with your mind, "MAGIC, it must be fake". But in the distant future "He's just moved it by charging electrons around it and applying a force to one side....no magic to it". Yes ok not a good analogy (please don't take the "explanation" of telekinesis too seriously) but surely you can see where I am coming from now?

[Ivan]

Just because science can't explain something at the time doesn't mean it doesn't exist yet.

Science isn't some guy. It's a method. We do science and discover science, but science doesn't engage in explaining anything; explaining things is not science's job, it is science.

It's not the case that magic needs to be scientifically explained - it's that it has, and the scientific explanation is "it doesn't actually happen."

As for your telekinesis example - it's just not magic. Some people who don't know what it is might call it magic, but doing so is an impediment to their learning what it is, because they are essentially saying it does not need an actual explainable cause. Which is why magic is a pathetic and useless explanation for anything.

Considering something magic is just another way to phrase total ignorance. That doesn't make magic real. That's just making ignorant people feel better. Under no real definition does "magic" mean "things we don't yet understand." That's confusing a simile for a definition.

[Bear]

Science isn't some guy. It's a method. We do science and discover science, but science doesn't engage in explaining anything; explaining things is not science's job, it is science.

I dont want to repeat myself but I covered this

Science is behind everything is what I am saying, even if we don't understand it at the time.

It's not the case that magic needs to be scientifically explained - it's that it has, and the scientific explanation is "it doesn't actually happen."

You are putting yourself in the loop of trying to scientifically explain something that by it's own definition can't be.

As for your telekinesis example - it's just not magic. Some people who don't know what it is might call it magic, but doing so is an impediment to their learning what it is, because they are essentially saying it does not need an actual explainable cause. Which is why magic is a pathetic and useless explanation for anything.

Considering something magic is just another way to phrase total ignorance. That doesn't make magic real. That's just making ignorant people feel better. Under no real definition does "magic" mean "things we don't yet understand." That's confusing a simile for a definition.

Thank you for proving my point of as soon as something becomes explainable it is no longer magic. I was counting on you to say something like that because I put a reasonable explination to it, sorry for being my little guinea pig for that. Magic is not ignorance, magic is a driving force, the force to find out what we do not know. My last little example, The Big Bang, start of everything. with all the knowledge in the world we still can't fully understand the science behind it, even with theoretical science. Is it ignorance that makes people think it's magic or is it that same thought that drives people find out the truth behind the trick? Magic is all about what we do not understand, if you want to dismiss it and call it ignorant thats fine by me. Tho personally I try to keep an open mind about all things that we do not understand.

[______]

So is "Magick," by its own definition, inexplicable or has it simply yet to have been explained?

Either way any attempts to assert its existence cannot be empirically reinforced nor can a given phenomena be classified as "Magick" and then used to represent a larger (inexplicable) concept. It really just doesn't have any relevance.

Edit: I guess what I'm wondering is why you feel the need to give a name and a definition of that name to a set of concepts/phenomena that is more simply and accurately described as "things we don't understand yet."

Also, hello again AL. Glad to see business as usual.

[Bear]

Sorry I'm kinda bad with words, I was just trying to put foward that magick is indeed something we do not understand

[mani]

There are many things we "don't understand" that we can nonetheless demonstrate are real, so that's not relevant.

I'm not clear on what it is you're trying to say. Are you simply saying that "magic" is just a synonym for "not-fully-understood phenomenon"?

Or are you trying to say that magic is a real thing and that somehow we will never be able to understand it?

If it's the latter, then we have a problem - specifically, you are asserting that magic is real, while simultaneously saying it's impossible to prove that magic is real.

[Bear]

It's the former, more or less if I understand you correctly.

[______]

Then what is the purpose of that synonym and what is the difference between say, the nature of dark matter and the afore mentioned "spiritual body?"

Both things we don't understand. One we know to exist and have gathered some knowledge of, the other being a completely unsubstantiated concept.

[mani]

It's the former, more or less if I understand you correctly.

I find that difficult to believe, since no-one expressed anything to the contrary of that, anywhere in this entire thread, whatsoever - especially not anyone you were quoting and responding to.

It also doesn't explain why you're saying you like to keep your "mind open" about these things.

[Flow]

If magick ever existed, it was lost long ago.
What's practiced nowadays is mostly made up and misinterpreted. If there ever was magick it's certainly not known by anyone now, and if it is, they're certainly not telling.
Even what's practiced as wiccan magick's been proven to have been made up rather than supposedly "brought back from ancient times".

As to what it is, it's simply altering probability. Making your own odds if you will, but really all these rituals and bells and whistles are a simple matter of raising one's own self-esteem.
Love spells, fortune, etc., it's all a way of dealing with the fear of uncertainty.
So in a way, magick's what you make of it.
If you think that love spell is really going to help you ask the person you like out, if you believe it, then sure, fuck it, go ahead and do it. However, there's a fine line between confidence and schizophrenia, your 'dark' and 'light', if you will. Rituals are magick in that they don't alter the world, but rather the way you look at the world, as can be seen in rituals performed by theater performers and sports players (lucky socks, and whatnot), but always keep in mind that it's your perception, so you can't try and force it on anyone. Hence the wiccan belief of 'do what you will, as long as it doesn't affect others'.