Magick

[Android 18]

Just to describe the title: It is spelled correctly. Both spellings of the word (magic and magick) mean two different things -
Magic is what magicians do at kids parties and other venues; card tricks, pulling rabbits out of hats, etc.
Magick is "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will" (defined by Aleister Crowley) and includes both mundane purposes and that found in ritual magick.

Magick and its related spiritual/religious paths are estimated to go as far back as the Paleolithic Times where the Goddess Figurines came to be. During this time, women were considered Holy. They gave life and it was believed that women did this on their own; that they had control on when and if they could bare a child and that men had no participation at all. So any/all rituals during the time were mainly performed by women, especially during their cycles - when women were thought to be at their strongest, magickally. It is also why the Goddess Figurine was made/carved. And it's interesting to see that, for the longest time, the Goddess Figurine carvings remained constant in nearly every region that they were found and throughout the span of the Paleolithic Times. It was later on, in France, when an image of the God we now kcall Cernunnos was made in a cave. They depicted him as having the role men had during this time: he was the hunter and gatherer; he wore animal skin for clothing and antlers on his head.

Both of these depictions are still maintained today, although altered slightly in each path/faith.

Over time, the worship and honoring practicing of these figures has altered, and so has the perception of Magick. With the start of Christianity, practicing Pagans lived peacefully and worked with the churches to provide wisdom and take on the healing roles of different villages. After some time, fear - for some reason - developed; fear of Magick, mainly, and pretty soon, Witches were pushed out of their roles and the legal definition of a witch in 1580 became: "One who knowing the God's law tries to bring about some act through an agreement with the devil." And thus the burning times commenced, where community courts tried alleged witches/individuals who were thought to practice magick during the 1550 to 1650's.

Modern Magickal practices have involved from what has survived The Burning Times (since many actual witches/practitioners went underground for safety) and some stigma still remains due - to what I believe - is pure misunderstanding.

So what do you believe Magick is (what do you think of when someone mentioned magick)? Do you believe it exists and that it has the potential to do what it is claimed to do? Do you believe magick can be "white" or "black"; good or evil? If presented the opportunity, would you ever perform a spell of your own?

-------------------------

As I am a practitioner, I do believe in Magick, but also believe it has its limitations. Magick can't solve all of your problems and isn't meant to try and solve everything in your life. I believe trying to use Magick for everything defeats the purpose of life, where challenges are to be embraced and conquered. I have seen the effects of Magick - both with good and bad intentions (and let me tell you, you NEVER want to perform such a thing. A friend of mine did and it did exactly what she wanted, but Karma got her back so bad!). I don't believe you can classify Magick as good or evil, I believe such identifications reside with the person performing the spell. If the person has intentions that harm another, the spell will harm its recipient; if the person has good intentions, the recipient will experience that as well.

So please, share your thoughts; even if they contradict my own thoughts and experiences.

[Nilolats]

what is the source of all magick

where does it come from

who decides who gets to use it

what, if any, are the punishments for over/misuse of magick

is the devil really that bad of a guy? (i mean c'mon he houses up all of the evil people and tortures them for eternity, he's doing god's work for him)

edit: i probably should have read the first post, that answered like half of my questions

[LKG]

Well, 18 I never did know anything about it, was raised by a staunch catholic family, I naturally differ in beliefs from your point of views. Though I will never impose beliefs on anyone else, great thing about america, though I do believe in more forces out there than I know of. The good side, and the evil one, though they are just my personal beliefs...

[Android 18]

Nilolats: To answer your last, Pagans/Wiccans don't believe in the Devil/Satan or in Hell. So you would have to bring that up to someone who would have thoughts on that.

LKG: What are your thoughts on Magick? Would you ever participate in a ritual or a spell if given the chance? I know many Catholics who are also Pagan or just participate in rituals and spells of their own. Not that anyone would push you to participating.

[mani]

Magick and its related spiritual/religious paths are estimated to go as far back as the Paleolithic Times where the Goddess Figurines came to be. During this time, women were considered Holy. They gave life and it was believed that women did this on their own; that they had control on when and if they could bare a child and that men had no participation at all.

Let's start with some sources for this, just out of curiosity. I mean, if you think magick is real, surely you care if this aspect of its history is true, and/or what its context is, right?

[Android 18]

Let's start with some sources for this, just out of curiosity. I mean, if you think magick is real, surely you care if this aspect of its history is true, and/or what its context is, right?

One source, my main one, is a bit hard to reference since it's an online school: Sacred Mists Online Wiccan College. It was featured in the second lesson. I know they had a lot of sources listed, but I didn't save the links or titles of the books. I know they used Britannica as their source and books that they uploaded onto their servers as well, but I don't have access to that information since I'm not a student anymore. Some of the information is also featured in the book Divining the Future by Sally Morningstar. I've also heard this from many other people and read many books that have held these facts, but never bothered to write them down.

I can remove or scratch out that part if people would like, since I can't exactly provide those sources for you.

[~Mog~]

I've always had a spiritual side. I've had a dabbling interest in tarot cards on and off, ad started getting in tune with them again. it always amazes me how accurate a reading i seem to pull every time. almost scares me, but i love it.

[LKG]

18 , with all due respect I do not believe I would ever participate in matters pertaining to such activities. I am too afraid of the unknown to tell you the honest truth, I choose remain woefully ignorant of such things as the fear of hell in me. I know this is not a popular view, however I am a firm believer in the good book, and try to live my life according without some of the extremes of the holy wars back in the day . However you won't ever catch me damning anyone for thier personal beliefs, I do realise the old adage about one bad apple ruining peoples perception of an entire barrel....

[Ivan]

is there a wiccan database of the statistical effectiveness of each spell or spell type

if not, why

if not and a spell's success is considered a matter of 'faith', why aren't there at least statistics pertaining to spells cast by particularly well-regarded members of the community, to give a 'best chance' estimate for aspiring magickcians

again assuming there is not such a body of research, how does a wiccan decide which spell to cast if there are two spells (or two versions of the same spell) that purport to have the same effect

[Android 18]

There isn't a statistical database, no. That would be silly. Spells don't necessarily need candles or items like ribbons or bells in order to be a spell. All those things are to help keep your mind on track to what you're doing. You can perform a spell with your thoughts on a bus, sitting on a bench or just relaxing.. maybe even the period before going to bed. People perform magick without realizing it sometimes - by thinking over what they want time and time again; imagining what the ultimate goal is. So there wouldn't be any sort of accurate representation of who did what spell.

And if a person has trouble deciding, they would meditate on it. If they have a hard time doing that, they can mull what each spell offers for them and if it'll get their desired outcome. One time, when I was gonna perform a love spell (I was 17 at the time), I was asked if I wanted to use Lilith or Athena as the Goddess in which I would call upon for the spell. I chose Athena since Lilith seemed too strong an energy. I didn't feel that having that entity involved would get me the result I was looking for.

Anyway~ I'm more than happy to answer questions about Magick, but let's use this thread for discussing your thoughts on it and what it represents.

[Ivan]

There isn't a statistical database, no. That would be silly.

I could just as well call magick silly, if there's no reason to collect statistical information regarding its effects.

Spells don't necessarily need candles or items like ribbons or bells in order to be a spell. All those things are to help keep your mind on track to what you're doing.

Then couldn't you collect data on how effective these focusing items were in enhancing a given spell? Saying you "don't necessarily need" them seems to imply they have a positive effect on average.

You can perform a spell with your thoughts on a bus, sitting on a bench or just relaxing.. maybe even the period before going to bed. People perform magick without realizing it sometimes - by thinking over what they want time and time again; imagining what the ultimate goal is. So there wouldn't be any sort of accurate representation of who did what spell.

If you can't tell whether someone cast a spell, what's the difference between believing in magick and not believing in it?

And anyway, a database obviously wouldn't need to collect information on unintended spells if they were too difficult to identify. Data on intentional spells would be sufficient to at least indicate the usefulness of performing spells intentionally.

And if a person has trouble deciding, they would meditate on it. If they have a hard time doing that, they can mull what each spell offers for them and if it'll get their desired outcome.

But how are they going to know what each spell actually offers them and at what rate and likelihood of return without any statistical analysis?

One time, when I was gonna perform a love spell (I was 17 at the time), I was asked if I wanted to use Lilith or Athena as the Goddess in which I would call upon for the spell. I chose Athena since Lilith seemed too strong an energy. I didn't feel that having that entity involved would get me the result I was looking for.

But what data demonstrated "stronger" results from invoking Lilith rather than Athena?

Also, does evoking beings from radically different mythos require different preparations or incantations?

Anyway~ I'm more than happy to answer questions about Magick, but let's use this thread for discussing your thoughts on it and what it represents.

I think it represents insecurity in everyday living and a large portion of modern practitioners represent cultural appropriation and new-age-style metaphysical superiority complexes.

[Android 18]

If you wanna call it silly, go for it. In order for statistical analysis of any kind, you pretty much need some controls of sorts. Different people classify things differently, different Witches do things differently. No two Witches do things the same way. Even if two people tend to evoke the same God/esses, they do it differently, they'll use them differently. So taking that into account and adding into the equation the number of people you will need to involve to collect and compile it, plus the fact that you can't contact everyone, it's too much man-power for very little gain. All spells are going to work if your mind is focused.

But what data demonstrated "stronger" results from invoking Lilith rather than Athena?

Also, does evoking beings from radically different mythos require different preparations or incantations?

No data, it's just their lore that was different to me. One of Athena's symbols is the owl - meaning wisdom. Her lore suggests she's all about doing things that make rational sense. I didn't want the love spell to be driven by love alone, but to be methodical and to have the right person brought into my life.

Yes, but not because of the different mythos. It was different because of what they represented. So when you call them into the circle, you would make a statement as to why you've called upon them. On that same token, some may actually take that into account: they may dress differently, use different candle colors, use a different incantation - very little of it is written down or considered the "right" or "wrong" way to do things. Magick is all about what you want to do deep down; what you feel is needed. Nothing more.

Also, after a spell, you're not supposed to talk or think about it. Those means give energy to either support or slow down the process of the spell. Like I said, they'll always work, but it varies in the amount of time based on if you're all there for it or now. And if you're thinking negatively about the spell you've just completed or not.

[Unknown Command]

Hm.

Seems you missed out about Shamans.

Shamanism ( /ˈʃɑːmən/ shah-mən or /ˈʃeɪmən/ shay-mən) is a term used in a variety of anthropological, historical and popular contexts to refer to certain magico-religious practices that involve a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world.[2] A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.[3] The exact definition and use of the term "shamanism" has been highly debated by scholars, with no clear consensus on the issue.
The term "shamanism" originates from the Tungusic languages of eastern Siberia, and was originally used by western scholars to describe the practices of certain types of magico-religious specialist within Central and Northern Asia. Upon learning more about religious traditions across the world, western scholars also used the term "shamanism" in reference to similar magico-religious practices found within the indigenous religions of other parts of Asia, Africa, Australasia and the Americas. Various historians have argued that shamanism also played a role in many of the pre-Christian religions of Europe, and that shamanistic elements may have survived in popular culture right through to the Early Modern period. Various archaeologists and historians of religion have also suggested that shamanism may have been a dominant religious practice for humanity during the Palaeolithic.

[link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism[/link]

Plus, most of the past of magick was more through understanding the Chemicals around, say herbal etc. Hence why most "witches" etc was known to live of the land.

As Science began to discover more and more, the "magicks" the others used became broken down to what and where it was. Side effects of certain plant, human behaviour was given out. I mean, if we went back in time with a phone or a radio, that would be seen as "magick" too. There was no education like we have today.

[Ivan]

Kaze, I'd like to know what your post is in response to and exactly what it is you're trying to point out.

If you wanna call it silly, go for it.

I did.

In order for statistical analysis of any kind, you pretty much need some controls of sorts. Different people classify things differently, different Witches do things differently. No two Witches do things the same way. Even if two people tend to evoke the same God/esses, they do it differently, they'll use them differently. So taking that into account and adding into the equation the number of people you will need to involve to collect and compile it, plus the fact that you can't contact everyone, it's too much man-power for very little gain. All spells are going to work if your mind is focused.

That's a massive misunderstanding of statistical analysis; a single practitioner could provide useful information just by recording the results of their own spells. These results could then be tested by other witches repeating the same processes. It would be apparent from the work whether the practitioner was impartial to the result. Controls would merely be recording events without interacting with intentional spells.

Would you be willing to record a statistical analysis of your own spells?

No data, it's just their lore that was different to me. One of Athena's symbols is the owl - meaning wisdom. Her lore suggests she's all about doing things that make rational sense.

Things like magick?

I didn't want the love spell to be driven by love alone, but to be methodical and to have the right person brought into my life.

Wouldn't it be more methodical to use a dating method that didn't rely on invisible and unproven forces?

Yes, but not because of the different mythos. It was different because of what they represented. So when you call them into the circle, you would make a statement as to why you've called upon them. On that same token, some may actually take that into account: they may dress differently, use different candle colors, use a different incantation - very little of it is written down or considered the "right" or "wrong" way to do things. Magick is all about what you want to do deep down; what you feel is needed. Nothing more.

So the will of the spirit called upon is largely ignored? Why bother calling on a spirit with its own mythos, then? Why not just call upon the idea of "methodical love-finding" if the spirit itself is of such little apparent importance? Is there any sense amongst practitioners that using a method to call upon a being that did not endorse your method of calling upon them is in the first place cultural appropriation and in the second place rude to the spirit, assuming it exists? Is there any rhyme or reason to witch spirits can be called upon? What about calling on spirits that explicitly condemn witchcraft? What about making up your own spirits instead?

Also, after a spell, you're not supposed to talk or think about it.

Why is that limited to after the spell? Maybe you're not supposed to think about the spell during the spell, either. Or before it. How do you know you're supposed to cast a spell at all?

Those means give energy to either support or slow down the process of the spell. Like I said, they'll always work, but it varies in the amount of time based on if you're all there for it or now. And if you're thinking negatively about the spell you've just completed or not.

Isn't that just a nicer way of saying "if it doesn't work, it's your fault, so let the buyer beware"? And if you're going to make claims about the time frame and effectiveness of a spell, I'll have to assume you actually do have some form of statistical analysis. The alternative is that you're lying and have no idea what effect it has.

[Asimov]

As I am a practitioner, I do believe in Magick, but also believe it has its limitations. Magick can't solve all of your problems and isn't meant to try and solve everything in your life.

What good is it then?

Man this is why I sided with the Technocrats instead of the Mystics.